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Changes: Self Esteem

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Annie [00:00:04] Ho, ho, ho! Hello. It is Annie. Welcome to Changes. It is Christmas next week, how the hell did that happen? I do not know. But I'm very happy that you are here and joining me for a very special episode, an episode where we decided to look back at the year 2022 and to see how we have changed and how the world around us has changed. And to do that, we thought we would catch up with someone who's had the most momentous year, where her career has changed irrevocably. Yes, we are catching up with one of the busiest pop stars of 2022, Rebecca Lucy Taylor, otherwise known as Self Esteem. After releasing her second album Prioritise Pleasure last year, Self Esteem has had a bonkers year with huge changes in her career. She was nominated for Best British Breakthrough Act at the Brit Awards, the Mercury Prize, three NME Awards, she extensively toured in the UK and America, performing at over 30 festivals, played Glastonbury in an iconic outfit designed to honour the shopping centre in Sheffield, Meadowhall. We get into that. She supported Adele at Hyde Park. She made the soundtrack for the excellent play, Prima Facie with Jodie Comer. She performed the Live Lounge on Radio 1, Later with Jools Holland, Graham Norton on telly, appeared on the front covers of Stylist and Grazia and many more, and had billboards all over the country with her lyrics on them. Her lyrics have become mantras for how to live our life. People are getting them tattooed on them left, right and centre. Examples such as, 'getting married isn't the biggest day of your life, all the days you get to have are big' and 'you're a good, sturdy girl'. Rebecca's lyrics are so blisteringly and brilliantly honest that it's hard as a woman to not listen and just kind of be gobsmacked, because she's speaking to your soul and speaking for you in many, many ways. The way she talks about her relationships, her ex's, err everything from sexting to her friend's birthday barbecues, not having kids, marriage, like there's no stone left unturned. And as well as these incredibly honest, funny and sometimes really moving lyrics, you have this incredible soundscape behind her. Beautiful pop production, gorgeous kind of choral backing vocals, and then these songs that she writes. She is the most gifted songwriter. Like there's not one dud on her album Prioritised Pleasure. It is so consistently brilliant in terms of her songwriting. Understandably, everybody is talking about the album this year and everybody's playing it and the gigs have been huuuge. I was lucky enough to see her play in the Kentish Town Forum at the start of the year, and it was just really something to see the kind of adoration from the fans. It is bonkers going to her gigs now. So, I was so happy to be able to have some time with Self Esteem to look back on this bonkers year. We met in a pub in Hackney Wick at the end of November, just as the World Cup was kicking off. There was tinsel. Rebecca was hung over because she'd recorded an episode of Taskmaster the night before and she had a bit of a cold. We had a hoot. It was the loveliest way to look back at a mad, mad year. Welcome to Changes, Self Esteem... Self Esteem, shall I call you Rebecca? 

Self Esteem [00:03:37] Yes. 

Annie [00:03:37] Welcome! 

Self Esteem [00:03:37] Hello! 

Annie [00:03:40] She's got a pint!

Self Esteem [00:03:43] I got a pint! Cause I was drunk with Carol Vorderman last night. 

Annie [00:03:45] Ahh mate. 

Self Esteem [00:03:45] It was New Year's Day yesterday in telly land. 

Annie [00:03:46] This is telly land, everything's early.

Self Esteem [00:03:48] And today it's Christmas. 

Annie [00:03:49] So how was New Year's Day in telly land? 

Self Esteem [00:03:51] Very boozy *laughs* and very fun. I ended up on the floor with Carol Vorderman. 

Annie [00:03:56] Oh my God. 

Self Esteem [00:03:56] I love her. I can't stop thinking about her. I can't stop talking about her.

Annie [00:04:00] Why? Was she different than you thought she would be? 

Self Esteem [00:04:03] She's just fab. I just got on with her immediately. Do you know what as well? She turned to me after we'd done the recording and she went, 'you're a clever girl you, aren't you?' and I thought, I've just come *both laugh*. It was the hottest thing anyones ever said to me.

Annie [00:04:17] She just like, inadvertently quoted one of your lyrics at you *laughs*. 

Self Esteem [00:04:17] I know, yeah. But that's my thing I'm like, please- I hate- It's such a cheap shot to think I'm thick. Like my whole life people have wanted to call me a dippy blonde, and so when someone notices that I'm clever- 

Annie [00:04:30] When a clever person notices your clever. 

Self Esteem [00:04:32] Eughhh when Carol Vorderman notices- sorry I'm already going off piste.

Annie [00:04:33] No, I'm obsessed. I love it. 

Self Esteem [00:04:35] Yes, I've got a pint because I'm hungover *laughs*. 

Annie [00:04:38] You're hungover and you've done the best thing, what I would always do in your case is have a nice cold beer. It just fixes you immediately. Okay, so let's start with a reminder of the biggest changes in 2022. Just to give you a little update. So we had partygate in January with the government. In February, Russia invaded Ukraine. In June, Glastonbury and all the other festivals came back for the first time in three years. In July, England won the women's euro. In July and August, the Commonwealth Games happene. August, Notting Hill Carnival. We had a record breaking heatwave in the summer. September, The Queen died, Queuegate happened. By October we had had three prime ministers in three months. Tik tok took over everything. The recession started, cost of living crisis was in all the headlines. And now we're in November, World Cup in Qatar, hugely controversial. Like it's been a mad year when you list those things.

Self Esteem [00:05:31] Thank you for that. That's really helped me out. I'm quite displaced in my life. 

Annie [00:05:35] Yeah, no, absolutely.

Self Esteem [00:05:36] But yeah. It's been a mad year. 

Annie [00:05:38] It's been a mad old year.

Self Esteem [00:05:40] I think we're all going mad. 

Annie [00:05:40] We are all going mad. Then in the world of celebrity, Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at the Oscars in March. Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, that whole defamation trial was from three months, April to June. There was a big thing with pop stars changing their lyrics. We'll get into that after the public kind of said no. There was Kanye and Julia Fox. Pete Davidson everywhere. Jayde Adams mania on Strictly and most recently Elon Musk buying Twitter, which is the most dystopian thing I've ever come across and is terrifying. But let's start, Rebecca, with the beginning of the year when Joe Lycett became everyone's hero in, remember the fake Sue Gray report? D'you remember that? *Rebecca laughs*. I have it here, one of my favourite things from it. So he basically faked the Sue Gray report about partygate. He said on number four, at one party a senior minister insisted all cabinet ministers get onto a table and perform Pure & Simple by Hear'Say *Rebecca laughing*. It was a seven note thing with the full cabinet office logo and they thought it was real. He fully, fully faked the government. He tricked them. 

Self Esteem [00:06:47] He is so wonderful. That was so sad as well *laughing* I'm like, it's that easy. 

Annie [00:06:54] It's that easy. 

Self Esteem [00:06:55] They're that shit *laughs*. 

Annie [00:06:55] Yeah, and madly now that we're talking, like he is in all of the news this week because he has done this stunt with David Beckham, threatening to shred £10,000 in cash if he didn't stand down from his deal with Qatar for the World Cup, which is happening at the moment. This is obviously because of their human rights record. It's illegal to be gay and can be punishable by death in Qatar. And David Beckham has done this big deal with them. So Joe was like, you're going to lose the entire gay community if you don't just like publicly stand down. 

Self Esteem [00:07:26] Well yeah. He's profited from the community. For years. 

Annie [00:07:28] And David Beckham didn't even respond, right. So, he then did this amazing stunt where he looked like he was shredding the cash. Then he said he didn't actually put it all to charity, but he did shred the attitude cover with David Beckham on the front, which was incredibly symbolic. Do you think anything will change with the World Cup? 

Self Esteem [00:07:49] I don't- I think that the government lead. So when they just don't mention anything, if they never say sorry, they never explain anything, there's no accountability. So when like the literal leaders don't do that, then why- David Beckham's just gonna go, alright then me neither. Like it's so toxic about humanness. That there's sort of like no accountability. You wait long enough and it moves because that's the nature of our news cycle now. So it's grim and terrifying. 

Annie [00:08:21] Absolutely. And God bless Joe Lycett. 

Self Esteem [00:08:24] Well, that's the thing. It's like, Joe is like, a comedian and a presenter but he's actually a fucking artist. He's doing like what- 

Annie [00:08:31] That's what I felt watching that video. It felt like performance art. 

Self Esteem [00:08:34] Yeah, he is. Like all of this is art. It's shining a light back at the bullshit and it's genius. I had an amazing time, actually, on the internet yesterday. 

Annie [00:08:46] Why? 

Self Esteem [00:08:46] Just it was real like wheat from chaff kind of way to see like people I love or respect being like, 'ahh, can't do that in a cost of living crisis'. I'm like, wow, it's amazing. You know, and no critical thinking here. People just foaming at the mouth to prove a woman wrong or prove a queer person wrong. And it was like, but what Joe did, he knew, you know, the baseline it was nothing but positive. 

Annie [00:09:12] He was able to predict what people would say as well. 

Self Esteem [00:09:13] Yeah, that's why he's a genius. I'm obsessed. 

Annie [00:09:13] And also if you couple that kind of, what you're saying about people waiting to kind of talk down to women or queer people, as well as a kind of very binary nature of social media where everything's either love, hate, yes, no, right, wrong, then there's no nuance. You know, there's no room for complexities. It's so clever, isn't it? What he did. Erm, he came on this podcast and told us that he came up with the name Steemers for your fanbase, is that correct? 

Self Esteem [00:09:41] *Laughs* He did. He did, it's annoying. He's very influential in my life *laughs*. 

Annie [00:09:45] I love it. 

Self Esteem [00:09:46] He's beautiful. Beautiful person. He actually makes me up my game a bit, creatively. I want to impress Joe so it needs to be good. 

Annie [00:09:55] I like that. That's what friends should be for. You want to impress them. They need to matter, yeah. So listen, I looked up your Instagram at the start of this year, the first post that you did, you said 'doing absolutely loads of shite for your ears and eyes and groynes this year. Babe, you fucking smashed it. 

Self Esteem [00:10:13] Where did I say that? 

Annie [00:10:13] I wrote that down. 

Self Esteem [00:10:14] Where did I say it? On my Instagram? 

Annie [00:10:19] It's a copy on your Instagram, yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:10:19] That's funny. 

Annie [00:10:19] And then it's mad looking at your Instagram over the year because it's like *makes blowing up noise*. 

Self Esteem [00:10:24] Oh God, it all went bananas. Bananas. 

Annie [00:10:27] But at what point did banana level, like? 

Self Esteem [00:10:30] After Glastonbury. 

Annie [00:10:31] Right, really. 

Self Esteem [00:10:32] I feel like I promoted an album in a normal way and then Glastonbury happened and then I sort of had to repromote an album that's still happening now. And I'm not complaining, but I do feel completely just crackers. But I think it's, it's this weird mix of like I've always been ready to work as hard, like I've always wanted to work this hard and never had enough to do. When I was in a band and no one else had ambition I was like, crawling the fucking walls. I used to walk from Ba- I was living in Balamy, I used to walk to Topshop Oxford Circus for summat to do. *Annie laughs* I just had a low key like calorie issue where I was obsessed with like, burning calories. So it wasn't healthy, but that's like- I'd love to even walk 10 minutes now. 

Annie [00:11:15] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:11:16] I'm just having pints and just going podcast to podcast *Annie laughs*. So arguably I was healthier back then. It's amazing and I'm very excited. I've got this, like, dream and I try not to live like this, but I feel like in about six months time we will have figured out what to say yes to what to say no to, how to like- 

Annie [00:11:35] At the moment you're saying yes to everything still because it's like- 

Self Esteem [00:11:39] Well, yeah. Because it's never been my life.

Annie [00:11:40] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:11:41] I've always wanted it to be my life, but now I'm like, I think we can let go. I think not for long, because I always want to work hard but the pressure of saying yes, pressure of like, I need to earn money and all these things that I've lived 36 years with. Like now I'm like, oh it might be alright for a little bit. So I might be able to have- I need a work-life balance.

Annie [00:11:59] I mean honestly, like I can't tell you how liberating staying low is. I got into a phase of doing it that I think I took tooo far *Rebecca laughing*. No, I won't collect the kids from school. No. But I just said no to everything to the point where my management were like, should we even put stuff to you? For the first time in my life, I had a plan in terms of I knew what I wanted and I knew what I wanted to achieve. So saying no is really easy because things either the serve the plan or they didn't. Anything that didn't serve the plan went. 

Self Esteem [00:12:27] Yeah bitch. 

Annie [00:12:29] And it meant that all of the yeses were so constructive because they were serving you. So good. 

Self Esteem [00:12:34] Yeah, I can feel that starting now but there was always like a six month backlog of what I did say yes to when I was still like, *frantically* yeah ahh! 

Annie [00:12:41] And obviously COVID in the middle of it all. 

Self Esteem [00:12:41] Ahh it's all- like this year when you were just talking about it. It's like as humans, it's a mad one this first year back or whatever. And then on top of it, like my life has completely changed in terms of my career. My career is my life, like I've always put it first. Music is more important to me than absolutely anything, to a detriment sometimes. And for my life to have changed in the year that everyone's life changed to a certain degree, yeah, it's just double whammy. But, it's bliss. Like, it is really beautiful, and I'm so grateful, but it's just. I'm sick of people going, ooh, look after yourself. I'm thinking, what do you think I'm doing? *Annie laughs*. What do you think I'm trying to do? You know what I mean, it's it's a funny one where it's like I am doing what I always wanted to do. But now, like, people who love me are going, 'ooooh, oooh'. I'm like, well what you want then? Do you want me to be depressed, walking to Topshop every day instead?Was that better for you? It's a funny one. 

Annie [00:13:42] But it's finding the happy medium between both isn't it? 

Self Esteem [00:13:45] Yeah, I do agree with it to a point, but I'm also like- when I left the band and I, I'd listen to this podcast with Bianca del Rio on RuPaul and they were talking about Joan Rivers, and they're saying that she always used to say, I love to be dog tired at the end of the day, like bone tired because I've worked so hard and I sleep soundly and I get up and I do it again. And I remember being in my kitchen in Margate with fuck all to do being like, that's what I want to be. I want to work my tits off *sighs*. 

Annie [00:14:14] So now you've got it. And this is probably the first year where you can really safely say, I know what it feels like to have everybody want me to do everything and for me to be saying yes. And how does it feel? 

Self Esteem [00:14:24] Well, it's just a very long winded exposure therapy to people pleasing *both laughing*. I'm like, we really didn't have to push it this far. But erm yes, now it's a new level of err, what serves me. Like what you said, what serves the plant what serves me. 

Annie [00:14:41] And have you a plan? Or is that something you want to come up with still? 

Self Esteem [00:14:45] Well, the plan was always this. Get this point. And now, it's just going to be very interesting, isn't it? Like what will happen? I know if I wanted to now- because I keep going on the bloody telly and I'm like, ooh I'll go, yeah I'll say yes to this. And then I think, no, people just want you because they're not used to pop stars like having a northern accent. People fucking love that. 

Annie [00:15:04] Yeah, well, having a northern accent, but also having a personality where they're witty and funny and smart. You're every TV producer's dream because you don't have a filter, you say exactly what you think. 

Self Esteem [00:15:14] *Laughs* but then people go, ooh I love the way you do that and I'm thinking, what? What's everyone else doing? And they're like, ooh she's lovely, I'm thinking... I'm not that lovely *laughs* are people awful?

Annie [00:15:23] Yeah but you're you. And that's the thing, so many people have a front. They have a front that they put on. They have an act. 

Self Esteem [00:15:30] Why though? 

Annie [00:15:30] I  know it must be exhausting. I don't know. 

Self Esteem [00:15:34] You must get knackered! So I don't know. I'm loving it but we do need to, yeah- I need to either get an assistant or I need a bit of time.

Annie [00:15:40] Get an assist. You're at the point where at the start of the year you didn't need an assistant and now you do. That's a change. 

Self Esteem [00:15:46] It's cool that init. It's so weird in music because it's so feast or famine. And I'm very aware that like, yes, everyone wants a bit of me this year, but in five years time will they. But I realised recently you can't live like that. Like I can't like destroy myself to, in case. You just have to make good work, have good intentions and I've got a little bit of a hope that it will continue to be like what I want. 

Annie [00:16:13] I think as well, like with you, there's so much wisdom in having lived before you became super famous. And I think that really helps with things like longevity because you're just a bit more in your skin. You know who you are. 

Self Esteem [00:16:30] Oh thank God. If this happened at 26, I'd be such an arsehole. 

Annie [00:16:33] I know mate. I always think the same. 

Self Esteem [00:16:35] And I would be deeply unwell within a few years. I mean, I'm quite unwell *both laugh* but I, yeah, you know I can joke about it. I mean yeah. Fascinating init. And I keep talking about age because they love to tell me how old I am in the press. They love to.

Annie [00:16:50] But you tell them first, which is another fucking brilliant thing. You say, you put a thing on Instagram saying I'm 36. Imagine that! 

Self Esteem [00:16:56] Yeah, get over it. People are still like, oh my God. I'm like, why? What's shocking about the fact that time has passed and I am aging *laughs* 

Annie [00:17:06] It's mental. 

Self Esteem [00:17:07] You know what, it's the only thing that definitely happens *laughs*. 

Annie [00:17:09] Yeah, but the thing that in your very existence and your honesty and your authenticity is you are changing the game for other people to follow in your path and be 36 and launch a career and, you know, not feel like there's an end point to being a popstar. 

Self Esteem [00:17:24] I hope so. But then I did have an MRI on my back and I've got two bulge disks and I was like, oh, what's coursed that and he was like, well, it's just normal for your age. *Both laughing* And I thought, ahh you can't say that. I'm going about saying popstars should be allowed to be older and then I'm like, oh actually, maybe they shouldn't because they need them discs to not be bulging! 

[00:17:38] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:17:53] So September was a a big month for many reasons. You were up for Mercury Prize *Rebecca laughs*. And I just loved how- this is another thing I love about how you talk to the world, in that you are so honest. People are afraid to say they want things. And you were so honest about what it meant to be there for you and why it was so important for you. You know all of that. And then the Queen died. 

Annie [00:18:19] Shit, she did didn't she. 

Self Esteem [00:18:19] The queen died on the night of the Mercury. I was in the judging panel, and the guy who runs Mercury walked out, came back in and was like, the queen is dead and we can't go on. 

Self Esteem [00:18:31] Is that what happened? I didn't know that. 

Annie [00:18:32] Yeah, we had to just suspend the entire judging. And I remember feeling so sad for the artists who had to spend a fortune on stylists and makeup. And I remember saying, can't we just have a red carpet so they can get their picture taken? And then that was deemed not respectful. You know, which in retrospect was probably a good thing, you know? 

Self Esteem [00:18:49] Yeah. No one knew what to do. We were all stuck in a hotel room, it was like succession. Like everyone's on laptops. My TV pluggers like phone would go and we'd all go, *gasps* look up at it. It was really weird. I'm grateful to all of it because, you know, I don't know if the universe sent queen her final days *Annie laughs* that day for a reason, particularly for me personally but it was interesting. And it taught me a lot actually about, um, you know, I power it on about, big days don't exist and stuff like this, like your wedding day but that's all bullshit to me.

Annie [00:19:26] Everday should be a big day, yeah.

Self Esteem [00:19:28] But the Mercury's felt like my wedding day. Like, we woke up, people were sending me, you know, emotional messages from people who don't normally speak like that.

Annie [00:19:36] About your big day. Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:19:37] Yeah, saying how much they love me. The whole band, we were all telling each other how important we are to each other. My parents came down. My parents, they do come to stuff but they're very kind of like, private people. It was amazing that they were there. And we shared all that all morning and I thought, ooh this is probably what getting married is like. It did and everyone cared about me so much and yeah, I got a taste of that and it just doubled down my theory that like, to live for a certain day is not a healthy thing to do mentally. Because like, it didn't happen. It didn't exist. Again, it was a very long winded way to learn a lesson *laughs*. 

Annie [00:20:16] Yeah, it's a really good lesson. It's a really good lesson. 

Self Esteem [00:20:20] Funny one though man. And then obviously when we did do it, it felt very different. 

Annie [00:20:25] Did your parents get down for this one? 

[00:20:27] Yeah, they did. 

[00:20:28] Oh they did, good. Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:20:29] I haven't actually even spoke about it yet. I haven't really thought about it. I'm so glad Little Simz won. But there was so much- so many people gassing me up as if it was gonna happen for me. And I was a bit like- 

Annie [00:20:41] Yeah, that's difficult. 

Self Esteem [00:20:42] That was really hard. Like, no offence to anyone else in that room that night. But it was like, the camera was on me, the camera was on Simz. Both our bands were set up. 

Annie [00:20:52] God! 

Self Esteem [00:20:52] They rushed me backstage to touch up my makeup. 

Annie [00:20:53] Really?! 

Self Esteem [00:20:53] Yeah babe, yeah. 

Annie [00:20:53] Wow. 

Self Esteem [00:20:53] And it was sort of harrowing *laughs*. 

Annie [00:21:00] Yeah. Oh my God. 

Self Esteem [00:21:03]  Nobody's fault, it's the nature of the game init but it was a lot. It was a lot. 

Annie [00:21:07] But again, the aftershow party where you arrived in full mourning attire. Obsessed.

Self Esteem [00:21:11] Yeah, well I had that for the first time round. I had this whole black Vivienne Westwood wedding dress with black veil and with cut roses. My whole idea was, if I win the mercury I'm turning up in my wedding dress, but my wedding dress is black. But if I don't win, I'm turning up in mourning. But when the queen was on her way out but it looked like we were still going to do it. 

Annie [00:21:35] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:21:36] *Laughing* and this is all on camera aswell because someone's following me around making a docco. But we were like, me and my stylist were like, maybe not the veil. The queen time we were like, maybe I can still do it. Just not the veil. Okay, not the black veil *both laughing*. Like discussing what would be appropriate!  

Annie [00:21:54] What a mad time. And it was just like zooming out on culture and the Queuegate and everyone talking about David Beckham again, getting in the queue for 12 hours. Like it was everywhere. And then there was that point where Sky News or someone misreported that there was a protest in central London and they thought that the people protesting were, in fact, people mourning the queen. And everyone was like, no they're protesting against oil or something. 

Self Esteem [00:22:22] This year has really taught me that. I don't know if you felt like this, but growing up I always thought somebody knows all of it *Annie laughs*. Like somebody is in charge somewhere. And this year has completely and utterly dispelled that, and then some. No one has a fucking clue about anything. 

Annie [00:22:40] It's the biggest rule everyone needs to learn in life. 

Self Esteem [00:22:43] *Laughs* yeah. I think I still held on to a bit of it. 

Annie [00:22:45] Yeah, no one has a fucking clue. Everyone is blagging it. Some people better than others. But everyone is blagging life. Talking about ermm, that. Matt Hancock, bringing it back to the start of the year. Oh my God, you need to see Rebecca's face when I mention his name. 

Self Esteem [00:23:01] I actually feel ill. 

Annie [00:23:01] But he obviously was, you know, so intrinsic in COVID and so much of the awful stuff that happened around COVID and deaths and making choices and decisions based on people dying. And now he's in I'm A Celebrity Get me out of here. I haven't watched it, have you? 

Self Esteem [00:23:16] No, I can't. I simply can't. Like my fella's an NHS worker, do you know what I mean. And it has knocked him. He's trying to heal from trauma from that fucking pandemic, and then this is just a slap in the face. And not just because I'm close to someone who- just any of it. It's like deeply vile. And actually like, really getting to me and affecting me and affecting people around me. Because it's again, it's manipulative and it's not to be like, queing on about it, but it's like very terrifying to watch the majority of people be manipulated, um, in plain sight and not have anything you can do about it. I'm a hypocrite I think, like I, I talk like this but then I go, and I'm just going to open up a different app now and look at things on Vestiaire. *Laughs* you know what I mean, like I just bury my head because I can't. 

Annie [00:24:21] Yeah, this is the thing. There's only so much you can do. You've been very public on social media about how you feel about it. You can't go in there and fucking grab him and pull him out. It is what it is. It's happening. But it's interesting how- I mean, it's like an experiment. It's like a fucking George Orwell novel. It's like, you know, watching how people react to him and then change their opinion of him or not or- it's just the whole thing is fascinating, but it's an interesting way to look at how politics has changed with Trump and all of that, the way that politicians are now becoming kind of pop culture people, where you have to like them or dislike them on a personality level as opposed to just think that their policies are helpful. 

Self Esteem [00:25:02] But it's like, the most engaging person in the room often isn't the most fucking nice person or good person. The most hilarious partner I've ever had was a fucking twat. Like, it's terrifying. They sniffed around me for I'm a celeb, you know? 

Annie [00:25:17] Yeah, and me. 

Self Esteem [00:25:17] Did they?! 

Annie [00:25:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:25:17] Obviously *both together* said no. Obviously no. Not until I need a redemption arc. 

Annie [00:25:23] *Laughs*. 

[00:25:23] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:25:35] Let's talk about Tik Tok.  

Self Esteem [00:25:39] Oh great. Pivot to something I'm thrilled about *both laugh*. 

Annie [00:25:42] Have a slip of your pint and let's talk about Tik Tok because it feels like Tik Tok has really like, consumed- 

Self Esteem [00:25:47] You really erm, lured me in with talking about Joe Lycett, something I can do all day. And now I'm troubled, I need a cig.

Annie [00:25:58] Matt Hancock and Tik Tok. Boom, boom. 

Self Esteem [00:25:59] What are you going to do next? 

Annie [00:26:01] Oh my god babe. 

Self Esteem [00:26:02] I'm trying to think of something funnier, I can't.

Annie [00:26:04] No, I think everything next is wordle. We're grand.

Self Esteem [00:26:10] Okay perfect. 

Annie [00:26:10] So Tik Tok. 

Self Esteem [00:26:12] Yeah, love it *laughs*. 

Annie [00:26:13] I mean, are you on it? 

Self Esteem [00:26:16] No. Well no, there's an account. I tried briefly. 

Annie [00:26:18] I'm not on it yet. 

Self Esteem [00:26:19] Someone does it for me. 

Annie [00:26:19] Yeah, I'm the same. I've never even looked at it or opened it. 

Self Esteem [00:26:24] I can't, I find it unusable. I don't know. I don't get it. People I really respect love it.

Annie [00:26:32] But are we just old? 

Self Esteem [00:26:33] I dunno, maybe. But then no, people older than me- Carol fucking Vorderman does it really well. 

Annie [00:26:37] Did you know that erm, I've just learnt that there's a thing called book tok. Like books on Tik Tok are huge. 

Self Esteem [00:26:42] Ahh no mate. Sucks for you *laughs*. 

Annie [00:26:44] How does that even work. How do you get a book down to like a 13 second clip? I don't understand. So I'm going have to get on it next year because I got a book to sell. 

Self Esteem [00:26:53] You will and I'm getting around to- I'm going to have to. My manager's like, it's fine, you will, you'll find it in your own time. And I'm like, still not happened. 

Annie [00:27:04] So FKA Twigs and Charlie XCX both talked about having to, like, go what they call 'viral'. Their labels putting pressure on them to find a viral moment within their music, right. You shared a picture with them and said, do they make Chris Martin do that? Which is golden. What do you think about that whole idea of labels panicking and being like, Tik Tok, viral. It feels like the way labels have changed is that they now wait for something to go big on Tik Tok and then they sign it. And that's the basis of signing a record now. Has it already gone big on Tik Tok, or does it show signs of. The end.

Self Esteem [00:27:42] It was still around even when I went solo and I was trying to get signed and you know, no one really wanted to sign me at all. But even back then it was how many Instagram followers have you got and all that sort of stuff. It's really ruining art, I think. But then I also don't want to sound like an old crow who's not moving with the bloody times. So, I get it and I'm happy for it to be how other people do it. I know how I do it and I know how I think and I know my journey with it. And then sometimes I meet artists that approach music as a product, and no disrespect to that at all, but it is another world. It's like a different job altogether. They are waking up in the morning and clocking onto a different vocation. And I have pangs of being like, you know, if I played that game a bit, what would happen but I physically can't. And thank God I've made it a little bit in a way. 

Annie [00:28:37] You've proven that you don't need to. 

Self Esteem [00:28:39] I've made it to a point that can pay my bills and it's in my terms. Back at the start of Prioritised Pleasure campaign, the social media department in my label were like, well, she's going to have to get on Tik Tok and I was just like, Jesus Christ really. And then like those huge artists, female artists way bigger than me- 

Annie [00:28:55] Florence as well.

Self Esteem [00:28:57] Yeah. Enormous artists that I look up to and want to be at the level of, when they were having to do it and publicly saying I don't want to, I just thought oh no. Again, it's the return to like no one knows. In my head I was always like, one day a big record label will sign me and I'll be a star and I'm like, nah, that doesn't happen. 

Annie [00:29:17] No, but also you don't want that to happen because you've won. You've got a record label that trusts you and allow you to do what you want. 

Self Esteem [00:29:23] They just don't say anything to me, it's beautiful *laughs*. 

Annie [00:29:26] It's ideal. You're your own boss. Like everything is becoming a novelty where suddenly sped up versions of tracks are doing big on Tik Tok. Like Steve Lacy, did you see that clip?! Oh my God,  there's a clip of him playing live and one of his songs, is like a sped up version done really well and Tik Tok and he did the classic hold the mic out to the crowd and they all knew like three lines of the song, and then they just all went silent because they didn't know any more than that one small section of the song. That's what's happening!

Self Esteem [00:29:52] Well part of me is like, if David Bowie was alive, would he be fucking with Tik Tok? Like I don't know. We don't know.

Annie [00:30:00] I like that just as a kind of precedent to set for anything, really. If Dvaid Bowie was alive, what would we do.

Self Esteem [00:30:06] Would David Bowie do House Of Games? No, but I still did. *Both laugh loudly*. 

Annie [00:30:13] Would Davi Bowie be on the floor rolling around with Carol Vorderman. Drunk. 

Self Esteem [00:30:18] Yes! I mean, watch this space. Maybe I'll fuck with Tik Tok but for me it's like, what's at the centre? The art. That doesn't change really, it shouldn't change.

Annie [00:30:27] And also maybe can I suggest community? Having a community of people around you that are really invested in you. So no matter what you decide to do musically, they're there. 

Self Esteem [00:30:40] Yeah. Which feels like I've just about got now and that, honestly, this is schmaltzy but that's way better than like a million followers on TikTok. I can feel my community. I can't feel the ether. I don't really want to.

Annie [00:30:58] Yeah. Wonder what the ether feels like. 

Self Esteem [00:31:00] Well also, I think to be enormous in those spaces you have to sort of be pretty central. I think I'm too divisive. I wouldn't be able to be me. 

Annie [00:31:13] No, I think the divisiveness would probably be really popular on there. For me, it just feels like such hard work. 

Self Esteem [00:31:20] I ain't got enough years left now. 

Annie [00:31:23] I know. It's like that thing you said I was reading your, um, the things, the notes that you put on Instagram. What was it you said? 'There's not enough air and not enough time to breathe it'. 

Self Esteem [00:31:34] *Laughs* Yeah, I do feel a bit like that. Not that I'm old or whatever but I do think now is the time to not waste anything. I'm not going to waste trying to figure out how to use TikTok. 

Annie [00:31:43] Not when you have a social media team who will do it for you babe. 

Self Esteem [00:31:45] Well no. Bless em. 

Annie [00:31:46] What about artists who changed their lyrics faced with public pressure? Will it make you think more about how you write? I'm talking about Taylor Swift, who had to- Did you see this whole thing? 

Self Esteem [00:31:56] No. 

Annie [00:31:57] She had a video. I think it was a video to Anti-Hero.

Self Esteem [00:31:59] Did she say 'fat' or something. 

Annie [00:31:59] Yeah. So there was a scales that she put on and then it came up with fat on the scales and people were like, no you can't just demonise the word fat as one of your nightmares. You're going to have to take that out *Rebecca laughs*, which she did. Then there was Lizzo and Beyoncé who had to remove the word- I don't even want to say it, it's a curse word, but basically it was very offensive to people with disabilities. So does it change a little bit what you think about how you write songs? 

Self Esteem [00:32:23] Oh, God. I think there's a natural amount of like, being aware enough I think. 

Annie [00:32:29] *Laughs* You've just got enough sense to not do it. 

Self Esteem [00:32:30] I don't think I'd do either of those things, but I also don't want to, um, you know, cancel culture is bullshit and no one is perfect and people make mistakes. There's arguments isn't there like free speech and art and what is right or wrong and all that kind of thing. But I think it was right to do that. 

Annie [00:32:47] To take it out. Yeah, to listen to people. 

Self Esteem [00:32:49] Yeah, to listen to people and care about that. 

Annie [00:32:54] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:32:55] And when you weigh it up it's like, can the art exist without the offensive thing? Yeah. Then take it out. 

Annie [00:33:04] Yeah, yeah. It's not going to compromise your art by taking that one word out.

Self Esteem [00:33:06] No.

Annie [00:33:07] Or one thing.

Self Esteem [00:33:08] No, but it is an interesting thing about- someone asked me recently like would I go back into records I've made and change anything and I'm like, eughh that's a horrible feeling, because no I can't. That would be a a revolting, unending pain *laughs*. You do have to put a sort of full stop on things. I personally have to put full stop on things to make them like therefore exist, you know. 

Annie [00:33:31] Yeah, absolutely. 

Self Esteem [00:33:32] So it does, it freaks me out the idea of going back and changing things. But don't be a dickhead about it I think. Interesting things about semantics and the word we don't want to say - extremely like different word in America. But shouldn't be, you know, so I think it was, you know, in a way positive that it was there and this conversation was had to sort of learn from and make change going forward. 

[00:34:00] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:34:00] Can I read you some new words that came out this year, Rebecca? Situationship. Fan of that word? An undefined or uncommitted relationship, apparently. 

Self Esteem [00:34:18] I actually think that's quite useful isn't it. 

Annie [00:34:19] It's a situationship. Nomophobia. Fear of being without your phone. Have you ever heard that? Nomophobia. 

Self Esteem [00:34:26] No. I've got it though, for sure. 

Annie [00:34:27] Have you? 

Self Esteem [00:34:28] Yeah, I've got a problem me. I talk all this self-love shit but I'm like-

Annie [00:34:33] You're just constantly scrolling? 

Self Esteem [00:34:34] Yeah. I posted a meme yesterday that was like, five different types of media to consume to stop me from forming a thought *both laugh*. I do think that is- when I've got time I want to really, you know, hack in and try and get back to letting thoughts in. It's been too useful to stop em. 

Annie [00:34:54] Yeah, I mean you do. You put them on your notes. 

Self Esteem [00:34:57] I do. And so I have enough thoughts to write albums, that's fine.

Annie [00:35:00] So you're making it work. But do you find that it's good for your mental health? Are you able to know like, right this is making me feel shit about myself today. I'm going to stop. 

Self Esteem [00:35:07] Yeah, I'm really good. I don't follow anything that bothers me, or I mute things or actually Instagram and stuff I fill it with art and films and stuff. I don't follow other musicians really because I start getting jealous. 

Annie [00:35:21] Yeah, it's impossible not to. 

Self Esteem [00:35:21] And even friends, I'm like, I have had to have conversations with people that's like, it's better for me to not follow you. Like it's better for me to- 

Annie [00:35:27] God, that's a really tough conversation. I'm impressed that you've had those. 

Self Esteem [00:35:31] I did that early on you know.

Annie [00:35:32] Did you?

Self Esteem [00:35:33] Yeah, like a girlfriend of someone I was in something with was like, really fucked off I didn't follow her and I thought... baaabe.

Annie [00:35:40] Yeah. I'm here with you face to face. 

Self Esteem [00:35:42] Also your Instagram's really annoying. I want to like you.

Annie [00:35:45] That's the problem isn't it, everyone has a friend who turns into someone else on Instagram, and it's very difficult. 

Self Esteem [00:35:50] Yeah. I'm really obsessed with, you know, like your girlfriends that- the selfies my female friends will post and I'm like you're way more like beautiful to me than that, but so fascinating what image we put of ourselves. Even me, I will post a picture- this happens with my management like there'll be a picture of me posted and I'm like devastated by it and they're like, you look so pretty or you look so gorgeous and I'm like, God we all see so many different things. It's very fucked up and we're all going to fry our brains early.

Annie [00:36:20] I've got an app called Freedom. So I've got an app called Freedom, right, an app that gets me off apps. And you set an hour a day, I do 2 hours a day, where you're able to look at everything and then you can't look at it the rest of the day.

Self Esteem [00:36:34] Do you! That's interesting. 

Annie [00:36:34] It is amazing. It really helps. 

Self Esteem [00:36:36] I do think that like, when I've got the time I'm going to- I'd love to reconnect. I'd love to read a book *Annie laughs*. D'you know what I mean? I'd love to read. 

Annie [00:36:42] I'll send you the proof babe, of my book, that can be the test. 

Self Esteem [00:36:45] Yeah, go on.

Annie [00:36:47] God, I mean, you've brought me a book. 

Self Esteem [00:36:48] I haven't read a book in years. 

Annie [00:36:49] Have you not? 

Self Esteem [00:36:50] No cause of fucking phones.

Annie [00:36:51] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:36:52] I read a book and my phone's inside it *Annie laughs*, I read a book and then I go, oooh as a treat.. within 5 minutes I'm going to check my phone. And like, as a reward for that paragraph you've read I'm going to check my phone. Like it's fuuucking mental *Annie laughing*. It's not even Instagram with me. I just go on Reddit threads. 

Annie [00:37:09] Right. 

Self Esteem [00:37:10] I'm just consuming anything so I don't- Yeah it's a- I've got therapy later today actually *laughs* this is a good little err. Set me off actually, it's interesting. 

Annie [00:37:21] Here's another one that everyone seems to be saying. Low key. Using it as an adjective to describe something that you might not want others to explicitly know. Example, I am low key happy that the class was cancelled. It's funny that it's just kind of come in. 

Self Esteem [00:37:38] Yeah, I don't mind it. 

Annie [00:37:40] Yeah, me neither. And then one of the most searched for things this year. Most searched for words. Wordle. That was a big thing this year. Did you ever get into wordle? 

Self Esteem [00:37:50] No, I do it over the shoulder of people sometimes. 

Annie [00:37:53] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:37:54] I'm not that bothered me. 

Annie [00:37:56] Too busy on your phone.

Self Esteem [00:37:58] Like, you know what, I don't really like games apart from Uno.

Annie [00:38:01] I love a bit of Uno. 

Self Esteem [00:38:02] Yeah, it's been an Uno year. 

Annie [00:38:05] Have you babe? 

Self Esteem [00:38:05] Yeah, I did go for one week away earlier this year. It was a fucking disaster. The minute I got there I got a cold sore, my neck went. Somet else happened that was really bad.

Annie [00:38:14] This always happens. As soon as you stop, your body just goes ooow.

Self Esteem [00:38:17] I was an absolute raging bitch the whole time. But then we bought a pack of Uno and it was like, peace. 

Annie [00:38:25] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:38:26] Every time I'd start ramping up for another meltdown we'd be like get the Uno.

Annie [00:38:30] Get the Uno out quick! 

Self Esteem [00:38:31] And it works still. 

Annie [00:38:32] And good for not being on your phone. 

Self Esteem [00:38:33] It's gorgeous for not being on your phone. And then I did 31 festivals this year. 

Annie [00:38:39] Yeah, so we need to talk about that. 

Self Esteem [00:38:41] We took Uno all the way through though. We had a leaderboard, there was a winner, there's a prize and it was a moment, me and my band, the crew, you know when you like flip a card and it's like two. We had these rounds where we'd go 'two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow'. And me and my drummer who is like a beautiful man. Very sort of, he's neither high nor low, he's just a very calm- 

Annie [00:39:05] Great for being on tour with I can imagine. 

Self Esteem [00:39:07] Oh, I adore Mike Park. I love you. For a moment I was looking into his eyes and we were both streaming with tears from laughing doing this rant and I was like, I have never been happier *laughs*. 

Annie [00:39:17] Oh babe. 

Self Esteem [00:39:18] So yeah, thank you Uno.

Annie [00:39:20] So like, doing 31 shows/ festivals over a kind of three month period is such a test for a band, like how have your views or perspectives on being in a band changed this year? 

Self Esteem [00:39:33] Great question. Mhm. I am really lucky because the people in the band- it's weird like how aligned we are and how wonderful it is. Like so far, no fallouts, nothing. 

Annie [00:39:46] That's remarkable. 

Self Esteem [00:39:49] And I'm under no illusions about like that not being forever because I don't know how we can do that forever. But I also know the people are so open communication and thought and process that I think we will be alright. It was always going to be fine with them. That's why I said yes to so many. But my main takeaways this year were, again it's about worth like, me being on at like 11:30 on a Sunday. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I learnt the hard way about like, what my worth is this year I think. 

Annie [00:40:27] Yeah. And those yes's, those initial yes's, it's important to say that you say yes, maybe six, seven, eight months before. Like you've already announced festivals for next year. So how are you feel at the time when you say yes compared to when you're doing it could be vastly, vastly different. You could completely change. Your career could have completely changed. Which it did. 

Self Esteem [00:40:44] Yeah. What happened was like, I've never had money ever. And they go, oh, we're going to pay you this. And I was really blinded by that, for it to sort of finally be a situation where I was getting paid, where everyone's getting paid well. I love paying people well. I fucking love that. And then I might make a bit. So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still got greedy I think. But I also don't regret it because we became this unit that now I'm going into next year, I'm going to do a new show for my March tour. And I'm like, we can do anything. They were like, do you want more players? Do you want staging? Do you want all this stuff? And I'm like, nah, I want it just us and I want to like push us even further and as a sort of process it's been, I think it's extremely special and the shitness and the like not being paid enough or being on too late that happened over the summer. I'm grateful. I'm grateful for it. Like I fucking hated some it. 

Annie [00:41:36] But it helped you know your boundaries. And what's the best thing for you and your band to be good.

Self Esteem [00:41:41] Yeah, and you have to do that with me actually. You have to make me really physically see something because-

Annie [00:41:47] You need to be persuaded. 

Self Esteem [00:41:48] Yeah. Or I need to see it. I need to understand the consequences of some of my sort of choices and it was a very hardcore way to do it *laughs*. And honestly, the worst and most knackered days, we were screaming laughing at shit. Like this bliss every day with these people. And in my old band I felt very tolerated every day and did not know life could be like this and it is because of the people. But then there's also, you know, there's an argument for like, you attract what you need or like, I became myself and then all this sort of beauty came into my life. When I used to pretend or try and be something else, it was a lot less wonderful. So yeah. 

Annie [00:42:26] Yeah. Can I ask you about something that has changed this year? And something I'm really interested in is all of these artists, and there's at least one hands worth now, of big artists, who have come out and said, I can't tour. 

Self Esteem [00:42:41] Yeah, that's been amazing.

Annie [00:42:43] I can't tour because of my mental health or my anxiety or my actual physical health being fucked from being over touring. Mickey Blanco did an amazing Instagram rant about it a couple of days ago, and they were like, the artist should not be apologising here. It is about the system. And it makes me really think like the live music industry has to change now. Surely off the back of- 

Self Esteem [00:43:06] I dunno man,

Annie [00:43:06] People like Sam Fender who sells fucking mental amounts of tickets, you know, or Arlo Parks, these people who are, you know, really got big fanbases and can make a lot of money for people and they just can't do it anymore. Is it down to the artist to say no? 

Self Esteem [00:43:20] I think so, yeah. I've realised that, no matter how many people in my team love me and want me, if I say yeah, then great, everyone's kitchens getting paid off d'you know what I mean like, it is ultimately that. I haven't thought about it enough yet actually. I've been like, ---. Like that was my first sort of vibe and then I was like, that is toxic and adds to this bullshit. But I've also been making moves, I've been in the industry 16 years. 

Annie [00:43:47] Yes. 

Self Esteem [00:43:47] I'm part of the problem. I've made something from fuck all for 16 years, you know, to the detriment of my health and my personal life and everything. Yeah, it needs to change. For me I'm like, good at it now and it would be beautful if I could play shows and not be completely fucked by it. That'd be nice. I think it's like a revelation that's yet to come for me.

Annie [00:44:11] Yeah, yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:44:12] But good on em.

Annie [00:44:13] Yeah, absolutely. And it's going to have to change the way they tour. You know, they're going to have to tour less or take bigger breaks between each date and it's just going to be a new rhythm of doing it. 

Self Esteem [00:44:21] And also we shouldn't have this many opinions, like we shouldn't know this many opinions about our work. So, like you announce a tour.. the amount of people, 'ahhh, what, you not playing in my back garden?' *Annie laughs*. Like literally. And if you're like me as well, like-

Annie [00:44:37] You take that really seriously. 

Self Esteem [00:44:41] I'm a desperate people pleaser. 

Annie [00:44:42] How big is it? Is there access round the side?

Self Esteem [00:44:43] Literally that's what I'm like *laughs*. And it starts there. So you're in that sort of pain. 

Annie [00:44:48] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:44:49] And then you play and then there's reviews about what you're doing. I don't think there should be reviews of live shows, actually. Luckily most of mine are 5/5 so that's fine. But I did get one that was three. 

Annie [00:45:01] And that will be the one that stays with you for the entire time. 

Self Esteem [00:45:02] Well he talked about what I was wearing. He talked about the stage size. 

Annie [00:45:06] I think I saw that. 

Self Esteem [00:45:09] I thought, I ain't got any money to give you a massive show. I can't give you 1975, I've never made that money. It was classist I actually thought as well, I was like, some people don't have to take money home from the tour. They can put it all back into the tour, do you understand that? If I watch a Bowie documentary I'm like, remember the context that like he made enough money within the first couple of years of his career probably because records sold. So he could take all these risks and go down these roads. It all comes back to money. 

[00:45:42] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:45:52] Let's talk fashion real quick. I mean, you know, obviously there's loads of other stuff to talk about, but I don't want to talk about the war in Ukraine because that's- fashion is way more nice for right now. So we went from joggers and sports gear continuing post lockdown, right. Everyone was like, oh let's just keep on joggers. I mean, I was that, I bought about eight different pairs of tracksuit bottoms. So a lot of nineties nostalgia, cut-outs, platforms, oversized shirts, low rise trousers. Think Julia Fox. Jeans with bra tops. Britney Spears slave for you vibes. We need to talk about the most iconic outfit of the year, which is your Meadowhall shopping centre Homage at Glastonbury. I died when I saw that. 

Self Esteem [00:46:36] So you would understand it as well wouldn't you. Yeah yeah. 

Annie [00:46:37] Well I remember going to Privilege and Amnesia, which is a massive club that has a massive dome and T, my partner who's from Sheffield said 'It's like Meadowhall that' *Rebecca laughs*. And it was, it was like, wow, and it feels like raving in a shopping centre. And I've never actually been to Meadowhall but I drive past it obviously everytime we go to Sheff. So tell me that got the attention it deserved? 

Self Esteem [00:46:58] Well it really did. I've had that idea for about seven years and it was always like no one will know what it is. 

Annie [00:47:03] Apart from if you live in Sheffield or surrounding those areas. 

Self Esteem [00:47:06] Well yeah. So it carried on just been on the backburner and then first time I did Glastonbury I did the Boots Advantage Card thing and I was like, I want to- when I do London shows and Glastonbury, which is a fucking rod for my back now, but I always try and do a thing. 

Annie [00:47:19] Yeah, an event. Costume event. 

Self Esteem [00:47:21] An event. So yeah, my first big London show was the boots. The second one, this didn't land as well, you know when you take a selfie and your whole camera reel is just you. But all the failed ones. Sort of obsessed with that. So I made a print of my failed selfie role, but no one really cared about that one. And then the next one, I was like, next one's going to be Meadowhall. And for some reason it didn't happen- oh again, it was just a bit like, no one will know what that is. And it got all the way round to Glastonbury this year and I genuinely couldn't think of anything else, so I was like, I haven't got a- everyone kept pushing back and we were like, right, we're going to do it. But because I've got Luke Day who is my stylist now who has changed my life, genuinely like that man is a beautiful person and then their work is incredible. And I knew I could go, if the outfit is chic anyway, we'll get away with it. 

Annie [00:48:12] There's nothing to lose. 

Self Esteem [00:48:12] Yeah. So it became- it was a big project *laughs*. 

Annie [00:48:16] So each dome of Meadowhall was your bra. Was the brassiere.

Self Esteem [00:48:20] Yeah, and then there was this sort of corset, which was, it was latex and it was- the corset was the sort of. Because Meadowhall is made of sort of like industrial sort of steel beams and then glass *laughs*. 

Annie [00:48:35] I just love the detail, the thought, the process of trying to make a shopping centre into a corset. 

Self Esteem [00:48:41] We went through quite a few different processes. Fetish Daddy, Ollie, made it. It really worked. And I also think people love that Glastonbury set and my career really changed after that I feel like. And I do think it was a sum of its parts. I think like the show was obviously good and the crowd were amazing and I was obviously very emotional and stuff and people love seeing that I suppose. But it was also like,the glue that held it together was, I was wearing *laughs*. 

Annie [00:49:07] You were wearing a fucking outfit that looked like Meadowhall shopping centre. 

Self Esteem [00:49:11] But Ollie, Fetish Daddy, when we had the fitting he was like, the sweat will go somewhere *Annie laughs*. And I remember being like, alright. 

Annie [00:49:19] Where though. 

Self Esteem [00:49:20] Because I was going to wear a grey suit and we were like, ooh, so we put black trousers on. And then during the set, like, I haven't actually watched it back but I bet you can pinpoint it. I was like, I have pissed my pants. I honestly thought, i've pissed myself. Because it's like not beyond the realms of possibility with me. And then I was like, Ollie's words, the sweat will go somewhere-where-where, in my head. I was like, oh it's sweat and I carried on smashing it. I was like, ooh, God. You know like people go, ooh, that's very self esteem, like something like a shit or whatever. And I kind of don't like that.

Annie [00:49:55] Because you want to be the glossy, perfect popstar. Yeah I get you.

Self Esteem [00:49:57] Yeah, but it is fair. But I did think, this is very on the nose even for me if I've pissed myself *Annie laughs*. I wouldn't even write that in, you know, to a sitcom about me. I wouldn't even. I also wore a white suit once and got period blood on it and I thought, come on Rebecca, for fucks sake. 

Annie [00:50:14] Wow, but that's kind of an artistic performance artist statement. 

Self Esteem [00:50:18] That was a trade off.

Annie [00:50:19] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:50:20] Anyway, sorry. 

Annie [00:50:21] There was a lot of content off the back of that. Right, dating apps. I know you're in a relationship, so I'm not asking you about these, but it is interesting some of these words that have come out this year. Exploridating: people questioning their type so 43% of people on Bumble describe their approach to seeing other people as exploratory. Exploridating. 

Self Esteem [00:50:41] I am in a relationship but we are- we're trying to be- we're open and stuff like that. I mean we're both just too fucking busy.

Annie [00:50:47] Yeah. I think that's everybody's dream isn't it, to be in an open relationship. 

Self Esteem [00:50:50] Yeah, but we say that but then we do a lot of Deliveroo and sit just next to each other watching telly so I'm like, I don't know how open we are anymore. But all of this is so interesting to me, and I actually don't want to lose touch with this part of the world because I'm going to try and quickly preach what I think about all this. So much about dating, dating apps, all of it is for me, it was always like just be liked, get liked. Like, win. Make sure you're not dumped. And that is such a shite way to actually connect with a human being. That if and when I'm ever back in that world, it's like, I don't want to be in that world until I can accept that the goal isn't err 

Annie [00:51:37] To dump and not be dumped. 

Self Esteem [00:51:37] Yeah, the goal is to connect. That means you have to be extremely vulnerable and open to know, and not being afraid of rejection is something to work on much more than like, getting a bit of filler in your top lip. 

Annie [00:51:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:51:51] Or like, getting skinnier so someone likes your pictures more. The thing you can actually work on is your safety of yourself. Somet like that anyway. 

Annie [00:52:01] Well, a lot of people are choosing to stay consciously single this year. 53% of people say they realise it's actually okay to be alone for a while. That's always going to help. I think. 

Self Esteem [00:52:10] I realised recently, again, watching the Bowie documentary *laughs*. Fuck sake I do watch other things.

Annie [00:52:13] Yes, we need to put a link to this documentary in the notes so people can go watch it. 

Self Esteem [00:52:18] And watching that I was like, he's about 32 or somet and they're interviewing him on a thing. 'Have you got a girlfriend, you got a boyfriend or whatever', and he's like, no I don't have time for that. Like I'm really focused on my work, and they were like ooh, cool. And I thought, fucking hell, men. Male solitude, fine, interesting, arty. Female solitude, Bridget Jones crying, what a fucking loser you are. I was like, that is actually- because I shouldn't have bothered trying to go out with anyone until about now. Like I've not been ready, you know, there's never been that space for me. I tortured people up and down the fucking M1, you know, throughout my twenties, and people tortured me. And it was because I was so scared to be a sad woman on the sofa, but then I was like, actually, being on my own is great. I love it. And even if it's Friday, who gives a fuck? And I think that's another thing to fucking push and dispel because I think a lot of women particularly, women who date anyone, it feels like there's a certain demographic that do it a bit more than others, you get treated badly but the fear is the Friday night on your own with ice cream. And the sooner Friday night on your own with ice cream doesn't seem like the fucking worst thing in the world, because it isn't, then the sooner you'll start making better choices and being treated better. I think, in theory.

Annie [00:53:39] Totally. It's the fear of rejection is the ultimate thing to get over, isn't it? And learning that it's not about you, it's about their choices and- Conviction in yourself.

Self Esteem [00:53:47] Apps should push that, actually. Apps should give people help with self-worth and self-esteem. 

Annie [00:53:52] So true that, there should be a responsibility there really. Because people will go on them more. Because you find so many women who go on them and then just are scared off because they're so fucking brutal. 

Self Esteem [00:54:01] Yeah. I say all this. I'm as fearful of rejection as anyone. 

Annie [00:54:06] Power PDA, big thing this year. Letting people know how in love they are. Machine Gun Kelly and Megan Fox, Kourtney Kardashian and Travis Barker. 

Self Esteem [00:54:15] I fucking hate all that. Fuck all that. 

Annie [00:54:16] You're from Sheffield, right? This is maybe Sheffield-ist, but I feel like people from Sheffield aren't into PDAs. 

Self Esteem [00:54:21] Oh no, I'm into PDA. 

Annie [00:54:22] As in all of my experiences with blokes from Sheffield are like, the most unromantic people I've ever met in my life *Rebecca laughs*. 

Self Esteem [00:54:31] I think it's more about is it for you though.  

Annie [00:54:33] Oh God, I can't stand it. I'm like, don't even hold my hand. It's fine. 

Self Esteem [00:54:37] Yeah, it's more, what's it for? I always think this. 

Annie [00:54:41] Is this for us or them.

Self Esteem [00:54:44] Yeah, and people that post their relationship a lot on Instagram and stuff I'm like, I remember doing that in a relationship, but I was like, that was to make up for the fact that we weren't actually having much of a relationship anymore. Like, I always think it's a red flag when someone's on Instagram a lot with their partner. I'm like, oooo.

Annie [00:55:00] Yeah. What you trying to say here? 

Self Esteem [00:55:00] Yeah, it's a funny one. But also, who knows? I might be wrong. Probably not though. 

Annie [00:55:06] Rebecca, what would you like to see change for 2023? 

Self Esteem [00:55:08] Oh my God. 

Annie [00:55:09] For you and the world around you. Just a really fucking massive question there. Sorry, to end. 

Self Esteem [00:55:14] It's a hard one. I think for the world around me, like empathy. 

Annie [00:55:17] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:55:18] More of that. Humanity. Because I think they were like kindness, be kind. 

Annie [00:55:24] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:55:25] And I'm like, I don't think that works. I don't think it's about kindness. I think that's a weird word. I think it's about empathy and thinking more critically. And for me personally, I want to get on the peloton a bit more. 

Annie [00:55:41] I mean babe, I saw you on it loads, no? 

Self Esteem [00:55:43] I was but then the disc bulge happened.

Annie [00:55:45] So you can't go on the peloton. 

Self Esteem [00:55:47] Not at the minute.

Annie [00:55:52] That's tough. 

Self Esteem [00:55:52] It's a shit laugh that cause I love that bike. 

Annie [00:55:52] Right, so get back on the peloton. 

Self Esteem [00:55:53] And I want to be more in the world. 

Annie [00:55:56] How do you mean? 

Self Esteem [00:55:57] It's been like, go, go, go this year. And now that's my new thing where I'm like, oh I can't because my schedule, and I'm noticing that's the new thing to hide behind.  

Annie [00:56:11] Okay. Got you. 

Self Esteem [00:56:13] In my personal, interpersonal stuff. 

Annie [00:56:14] Got you. 

Self Esteem [00:56:15] So I need the schedule to change. And I need me to not blame the schedule. 

Annie [00:56:19] You want to be able to walk to Topshop.

Self Esteem [00:56:21] I do. 

Annie [00:56:21] You're going to have to find a new shop to-. 

Self Esteem [00:56:24] It used to take about 3 hours and I had a Nike erm- 

Annie [00:56:25] A Fitbit thing? 

Self Esteem [00:56:26] Yeah. 

Annie [00:56:26] And you'd test your calories?

Self Esteem [00:56:28] I'd be like ding, ding, ding, numbers going up.

Annie [00:56:30] I actually still do that. I have a meeting once a week in town on Wednesday and I've started walking. It takes me an hour and a half. Bloody love it. 

Self Esteem [00:56:35] It is nice. When you're doing it for like a non freaky reason *Annie laughs* it's good for you. But when you're an obsessed, depressed woman *laughs*-

Annie [00:56:44] Yeah. 

Self Esteem [00:56:47] It ain't it. It was not it. And on that note *both laugh*. 

Annie [00:56:51] Before you go, what are your plans for Christmas 2022? 

Self Esteem [00:56:55] I'm just excited that no one can email me for maybe three days. I'm going up north back to my mum and dad's. I do the same thing every time. Me, mum and dad. I cook the dinner though now.  

Annie [00:57:03] Do you? 

Self Esteem [00:57:04] Yeah. I love going to Sainsbury's with me dad's card *Annie laughs*. No matter how like-

Annie [00:57:11] Ahhh sweet! No matter how much money you've got on your own.

Self Esteem [00:57:14] If I was filthy rich, I'm still gonna do that. And that's it honestly. I've never needed time off more in my life and the fact that everyone will leave me alone for a day is nice. But I'll be itching to get back on with it. The magic of Christmas is lost on me at the moment I'm not gonna lie *laughs*. But the magic of time off is not *laughs*. So yeah, that's what I'm doing.

Annie [00:57:33] Babe, I thank you so much. 

Self Esteem [00:57:34] No, thank you. 

Annie [00:57:35] That was so fun. Thank you so much to Rebecca for that conversation. As you can tell, we both had a very good time. It was too short for me. I could have been there for a good 5 hours and had one of those nice sessions where you just kind of ease in and have a couple of pints and then next thing you know, it's, you know, 11:00 at night and you're doing karaoke. But I had to go and do the school run, so I was gutted I had to leave. But so happy to have that convo and do please share it and spread it around to anyone who you know is a Self Esteem fan or just anyone you know who might enjoy looking back at the year in a kind of light-hearted and fun way. So we are going to be back next week with Changes Revisited, looking back at some of the highlights of Changes over the years. So you can look forward to those over the festive period. And then we're going to be back with a brand new series in the New Year. Thank you so much for listening to Changes, by the way. It just means the world to get your messages, to see those conversations that are moving you and staying with you and helping you in your own way, however small, to change your life for the better. Thank you so so much. Changes is produced by Louise Mason through DIN Productions. Seeya.