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Changes: Amanda Knox

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Annie [00:00:00] Before we start today's episode, please be aware that it contains upsetting content. Please check the show notes for full details... Hello, I'm Annie Macmanus, welcome to Changes. My guest today is Amanda Knox. Amanda Knox is an exoneree, a writer, activist and podcaster. It was back in 2007 that you may have read about Amanda in the newspapers or seen her on the news. She was at the epicentre of a huge global controversy which stemmed from the tragic murder of a British student called Meredith Kercher in Italy. As a result, Amanda has experienced extreme change in her life. In this episode, she tells us everything that happened and how Meredith's death and her own story are able to coexist. 

Amanda [00:00:59] For those who may not know just from hearing my name, Amanda Knox, I am the girl accused of murder. So when I was 20 years old and studying abroad in Perugia, Italy, one of my roommates was brutally raped and murdered. Her name was Meredith Kercher, she was 21 years old, another exchange student just like me. A local burglar had broken into our home and raped and killed her when no one else was there at home. And the only reason why I'm not just a footnote of this story, the only reason why no one doesn't know who I am is because the police and the investigators jumped to the conclusion before they had any evidence available to them that I was somehow involved in this crime. And they arrested me just a few days after the crime was discovered and spent the next eight years attempting to prove that their gut instinct that I was somehow involved was right, regardless of what the evidence said. And so I spent a huge swath of my young adult life in prison and on trial for this crime that I didn't commit. And I was eventually exonerated in 2015, but again, it took eight years and in the meantime, I went from a completely anonymous college student to one of the most globally vilified women internationally for a good ten year period. And to this day, I still grapple with that. The fact that I sort of came into the public imagination in the context of a horrific tragedy, accused of a horrific crime. 

Annie [00:02:58] Thank you for that. Now we know the context. Let's go back to before that time and before you went to Italy and look at Amanda Knox as a child. What was your childhood like? 

Amanda [00:03:11] I grew up with a very loving family. My parents were divorced for as long as I remember but were very united in parenting me in the sense that like, my dad lived in a house two blocks away from where my mom's house was and my entire extended family was within walking distance. So I very much had the benefit of this large extended family that was loving and supportive. And, you know, we didn't struggle with anything like finances or I was never- I never had to worry about crime, I was just living in the suburbs very much living a really positive, you know, supported life. And I was expected to go to college. I was expected to, you know, probably grow up and get a nice job and get married and have kids and just do the standard white picket fence kind of lifestyle. 

Annie [00:04:03] What kind of a girl were you? You're oldest of three sisters, am I correct? You being one of those? 

Amanda [00:04:10] Well, actually four. 

Annie [00:04:11] Okay! 

Amanda [00:04:12] So there are four of us girls and I'm the oldest, and I'm also the oldest of all of my cousins as well. So I grew up kind of as the babysitter of everybody *laughs* and also as the as the firstborn I was the one who was sort of forging my own path. I didn't really have any older siblings to look to as examples. I was always just, you know, making decisions for myself. And I think that allowed me to have a lot of freedom. I was also typically very responsible. Like, I got good grades, I did well in sports, I did well in school. I had an easy time really, it wasn't hard for me to make friends or to do well in school so really my family trusted me to be responsible. But what came with that was a lack of experience. Like I didn't have a ton of experience in the world, you know, I grew up in this like, safe little bubble. 

Annie [00:05:14] You cited the biggest change of your childhood around that time. Can you talk me through that please? 

Amanda [00:05:19] When I was a kid, I felt like really in touch with my body and like, I understood it and I felt very comfortable in it. And then once puberty hit and I went into high school, all of these womanly changes were happening and at first they were very, very uncomfortable for me. On top of that was moving into an environment that I was unfamiliar with. I ended up going to a Catholic high school, which I, I did not have that background. I went to public, you know, elementary school. I went to a private, independent middle school. And so going into a Catholic school which was higher income than I was familiar with, I ended up getting there on a scholarship, you know, my mom's an elementary school teacher and my dad's an accountant it wasn't like we were coming from this rich background. So I found myself immersed in an unfamiliar culture while I was also immersed in an unfamiliar body and-

Annie [00:06:18] A lot of change. 

Amanda [00:06:19] A lot of changes were happening and I remember feeling very, very awkward and having my first experience of being self-conscious. Like I had never been self-conscious before. In high school I was not, you know, the girl that everyone was interested in, I think I may have been asked to a dance once or twice. *Laughs* I was you know, I was not like the top of the food chain at high school, but I, you know, I had a good time but I did have that period of whoa, I feel awkward and this is uncomfortable and I'm self-conscious about it. 

[00:07:03] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:07:13] At what point did you decide then that you wanted to study abroad? 

Amanda [00:07:17] There are certain moments in that period of time that really informed why I ended up going to Perugia, Italy. One was that I came from a kind of international family. My dad's side of the family is all American hamburgers and hot dogs. And on the other side, my mom was born in Germany. I had family members who lived in Germany and, you know, at Christmas time we ate Rouladen and Zwetschgenknödel and I called my oma, oma, and we sang German Christmas songs. And so I grew up with this awareness of the bigness of the world and how there are just different ways of speaking, different ways of being, different cultures and I was always, always, always fascinated with that. I studied abroad for the first time when I was 14, I went to go stay with a family in Japan for like three weeks and it was one of the best experiences of my life, and it gave me the study abroad bug. So I knew from high school that I was intending to spend a year, at least, abroad as part of my education experience going into college. Again, you know, I grew up in this like, safe little bubble of supportiveness. And so when I was talking to my family members about studying abroad, one, they were 100% supportive and the worst case scenarios that we ever discussed in when thinking about, okay, what do we need to be aware of as you are going to be 6000 miles away from home, and the ones that came to mind were, what if you lose your passport? What if you get sick? And so those were the things that I was preparing for in terms of worst case scenarios. Neither my family nor I in any way anticipated me or anyone close to me being the victim of crime or of horrific violence. It was just something that didn't even occur to us to discuss. So I went to Italy with this wide eyed, bright vision of what this year of my life was going to look like and at the very beginning it really did start out exactly the way that I expected it would. I got lucky and I found this beautiful little cottage to live with, with three other young women. I was going to classes and meeting people from all over the world. I met this really nice girl from Kazakhstan and we started playing guitar together. It was really this just ideal environment. All of these people from all different walks of life who are coming together in this place because they loved Italy and I felt like one of them. 

Annie [00:10:13] You then met Raffaele at a classical music recital, right? 

Amanda [00:10:18] Yeah. I was not really into the club scene that was available around the town. I was more into finding little live music, like jazz club situations, or when I found out that there was this classical music string quartette, you know, recital going on at my school. I went there actually with Meredith. She stayed until intermission and then she had other plans with other friends so she got up out of her seat and the person who took her seat was Raffaele. And Raffaele was a few years older than me but again, one of the student population, computer engineering student. And he immediately struck me as very different than the majority of the guys that I was encountering in this environment who were typically like the more assertive bump and grind kind of fellas, which I was not really into. He immediately came across as nerdy and shy and I really liked that. So we kind of hit it off immediately. There was some flirtation during this music recital, but it was sweet. We just immediately like sort of put our heads together and became a little- had our little moment and then of course he came and visited me later on that day when I was working at the pub that I was working at, and he took me to a romantic lookout afterwards and we just sort of fell deeply into each other from that moment on. If I wasn't in class, I was with him. 

Annie [00:12:04] You were with Raffaele the night that Meredith was discovered. Can you talk to us, Amanda, about the change from you being this very innocent, wide eyed, kind of life loving young girl who called the police at the time to report the crime, to being an actual murder suspect vilified by the press? 

Amanda [00:12:23] Yeah. Yeah. It was- I mean, the day that I came home and discovered that our apartment had been broken into and called the police, I was anticipating going away for the weekend with Raffaele. Like, my plan was to just go home, take a shower, get changed into something pretty, grab a few extra clothes and go away for the weekend. So the last thing that I anticipated coming home was to find a crime scene and it wasn't like I walked into my house and there was Meredith's body with blood everywhere. Her body was in her room and her door was locked. And so I actually never saw her body in person. I just saw the remnants of this break in that had occurred. So when I called the police and in fact, I didn't even know how to call the police at the time, I had to go back and get Raffaele at his apartment, bring him back to my apartment with me, and ask him to call the police for me. And all of that... It was utterly shocking to the point that like I, I couldn't- I struggled to believe that it was real. Like, here was one of my roommates who had finally arrived, I had given her a call, she comes to the house, she helps. She and her boyfriend break down Merediths door and find her body, and she starts screaming and everyone is speaking in rapid Italian. So the first issue that I'm having is that I don't even fully understand what's going on and it takes me a moment to apprehend from the bits and scraps of things that I'm hearing that somebody's body has been found in Meredith's room and that some people are saying it's Meredith, some people say they don't know because the body has been covered and I am- A part of me is thinking, oh my God, I could be dead right now. Like if I hadn't met Raffaele a few days before this happened, I would have been home that night and whoever broke into our house and murdered somebody in our house would also have murdered me. And so I'm thinking that, I'm thinking are we sure that it's Meredith? Maybe Meredith isn't there and maybe that's the person who broke into our house. Like, I don't- I don't know. And so I'm trying to apprehend all of the things that are happening and understand even how to feel because all- like, as soon as my house is a crime scene I'm suddenly homeless, I don't know where- or where to go or who to talk to. My family is, you know, thousands of miles away and I'm confused. I'm scared. I'm in shock. I have no life experience to give me any insight into how to navigate this situation. So really what I ended up falling back on was just having people tell me what to do. So the police tell me to stand outside of the house and wait, and so I stand outside of the house and wait. And Raffaele, you know, sees that I'm cold, he puts his jacket on me, he comforts me, he gives me, like, hugs and kisses to, like, you know, keep me feeling safe and okay and it never occurs to me that there are TV cameras that have amassed across the street and they're pointing their cameras into the driveway and, you know, documenting every move that I'm making. That sort of self-consciousness is beyond me at that moment because I'm just overwhelmed by the circumstances. And then once I get to the police office, I just spend the next several days for hours and hours on end doing exactly what the police tell me to do, which is answer their questions. I spent something like 53 hours over five days just answering questions for the police officers or going back- 

Annie [00:16:56] And there was no translator?

Amanda [00:16:57] So there were translators here and there. The vast majority of the time that I was being interrogated though, I did not have access to a translator and- 

Annie [00:17:08] Or a lawyer, am I right in saying? 

Amanda [00:17:09] Absolutely no lawyer. No lawyer at all. And I was never informed that I was a suspect. I didn't know until years later that of all the people that were being questioned in relation to this, to this crime, and that included all of the people who lived in the house with Meredith, not just me and the other roommates, but the boys who lived in the apartment downstairs from us. There was all of Meredith's friends, there were just people that she knew in the town like the local pub owner who she liked to go to his pub, like everyone it seemed like who knew Meredith even remotely was being questioned. And it turns out that I was the only one whose phone was tapped. Like, from the very beginning. And so for whatever reason, the police from the very beginning targeted me. And I had no idea. The thing that I was told by the police was that I was their most important witness, that I was the one who was closest to Meredith in age who lived with her, that I was the one who came home and discovered the crime scene and called the police, and so at first I didn't even know this but when it became apparent that I was being questioned more than everybody else that I knew, the explanation for that and the explanation for why they said I couldn't go home to my family was that they needed me to help solve this crime. And because I had never been in this situation before and I was innocent, I mean, I had every reason to be afraid but no reason to be afraid of the police, I trusted them and I did everything they told me to do. And that ended up in me signing statements against my will and being eventually arrested and sent to prison. 

Annie [00:19:05] Upon being arrested and sent to prison, had you any idea of how the world had become obsessed with this case in terms of the international media? 

Amanda [00:19:14] So it's interesting. I spent- in the days that followed the discovery of Meredith's murder, I was really sequestered from the outside world in a big way. I spent again most of my time in the police office, and it only was- I think I had one day that I was able to go back to class for a few hours, just to go back to some sense of normalcy, and everyone in the class, the only thing that they wanted to talk about was this horrible murder that just happened. And I remember actually saying to everyone in the class, actually, can we please not talk about it because that was my roommate and I just got back from the police office and they told me that I shouldn't talk to anybody about it. And so then everyone's just kind of in shock and the teacher attempts to, you know, continue on with class as normal. But then I get a call in the middle of class that I have to get up and leave and go and go back to the police station, and I remember, you know, noticing that as I navigated, you know, as I was going between the police office and back home, it seemed like everyone was talking about it. And back home by- I didn't have a home anymore I was actually staying with Raffaele. Raffaele swooped in and became my knight in shining armour and was just like, whatever you need, I'm here for you. And I ran into people. And at one point even someone told me that there were journalists who were hoping to speak to people about the crime and would I be willing to talk to journalists? And I said, well, the police told me I wasn't supposed to speak to anyone so no. I didn't really know what was going on around town. I didn't hear about the memorial that was going to happen in Meredith's, you know, honour until it was basically already happening and I had just gotten out of the police office and so I didn't end up attending because I, I had only just heard about it. What I was doing was I was in contact with my other roommates attempting to figure out when Meredith's family was going to arrive so that we could meet with them and talk with them and tell them everything that we knew and just grieve with them, but I never got that chance. 

[00:21:37] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:21:49] On December 2009, you were convicted on charges of faking a break in, defamation, sexual violence and murder. You were sentenced to 26 years in prison. How old were you? 

Amanda [00:22:00] I was 22 at the time. 

Annie [00:22:02] You shared something on Twitter about having an epiphany on being sentenced about how your thoughts shifted in prison in order to help you live, basically. 

Amanda [00:22:15] Yeah. 

Annie [00:22:15] What happened? How did you have to change the way you thought about living in order to survive, I suppose? 

Amanda [00:22:21] Yeah so, for the first two years of my imprisonment I was like- from the moment of my arrest, I felt like I was living in a weird kind of limbo. That I was accidentally living someone else's life by mistake. And what I needed to do was to just hang on and wait for everyone to figure out that I was not this horrible monster and let me go back home to my life. It really did feel like this was all just a big misunderstanding and my life was on hold. Upon hearing a guilty verdict, upon hearing being sentenced to 26 years in prison, I returned back to the prison after truly expecting to be going home that day, realising that I was not living someone else's life. This was my life. And it didn't matter that it wasn't fair and it didn't matter that it was sad. That's just what it was. And so I needed to stop waiting to have my life back and instead try to imagine how to make the life that I actually had, that I was actually living, worth living. 

Annie [00:24:07] Yeah. How did you go about doing that? 

Amanda [00:24:10] *Big sigh* ahh it was a struggle because I'm not going to lie it's- 

Annie [00:24:15] You'd been in prison for two years already up to this point. So going through the trials, waiting, waiting, waiting and then you thought at the time that you had another, whatever, 20 something years to go? 

Amanda [00:24:25] Yes. And trying to imagine how to make 24 years worth living in the prison environment was really hard for me to imagine. I was only 22 at the time. That was longer than I had ever even existed. And I was you know, I was smart enough to know how to do the math. It meant that by the time I got out of prison I would be barren, I would be unable to have a family of my own so that dream of having a family of my own was gone. I would be bereft and I would have no life experience, no touchstones in the free world. I would be this adrift person who had been sort of raised and developed as a human being and would grow up as a human being in this tortured, miserable environment that would leave me completely unprepared for being a real person in the outside world, going through menopause and attempting to figure out how I was going to survive the rest of my life with the stigma of murderer. So instead, I really, really just pared it down to a single day. I would wake up in the morning and I would just ask myself, how do I make today worth living? Even if it was just as simple as writing a letter to my mom or, you know, doing a bunch of sit ups or finish reading this really good book. Those were those humble little goals that helped me get from sunrise to sunset. So I really tried to stay very present and not be obsessed with this indefinite future of suffering that I had in front of me and grieving the life that I had lost and the life that I thought I was going to live because I sort of intuited that that was a trap, that that was a prison inside of a prison and I didn't need any more prisons than the one that I was already in. 

Annie [00:26:45] What was the situation like, I suppose, in the prison? Were you able to form any sort of meaningful relationships in there? I presume it was isolating, but there is a sense of community I suppose in prison, if you look for it. 

Amanda [00:26:58] There is a sense of camaraderie amongst prisoners because we absolutely are being subjected to an experience that we are all not consenting to. Guilty and innocent alike are inside that prison space knowing that it is founded upon the principle that we are supposed to be there to suffer. We are suffering the consequences of, you know, what society has deemed appropriate for us and as a result of that, there is a sense of shared victimhood and of camaraderie in the face of struggling to just get through the day together because we're stuck in this together. The vast majority of the women that I was imprisoned with were struggling with a lot more than just the prison environment. They were coming into the prison environment after having suffered years of, you know, abuse or neglect or mental illness or drug addiction and so they had all of these other issues that they carried with them into the prison and were a large part, one of the reasons why they ended up in the prison in the first place, because they didn't have the same kind of social support systems or even self-control that would make them functioning members of society outside of the prison environment. And so I found myself in a space of both like highly regimented lifestyle, like we all woke up at the same time every day, we all had meals at the same time every day, it was always the same day over and over and over again. And at the same time there was this injection of chaos that came from the trauma responses of all of these individuals around me. And it was an environment that I was very, very unprepared for. It was not like school, *laughs* it was not like soccer, you know, club. These were women who, in my privileged way, I didn't even know really existed in the world, like the fact that there were women that I lived alongside with who couldn't read or write, who couldn't look at a clock and tell you what time it was, who didn't know that the Earth was round. Like, this is the level of neglect and and social isolation that these women were coming from. I was in an alien planet, and I was also an alien from a different planet on that alien planet. It took me a long time to adapt and figure out what my place and my role could be in that environment. And that was really the key flip, was figuring out the intersection between my talents and resources and the needs within that environment and that largely came down to my education. I could read and write and I eventually taught myself Italian so I was often writing letters for the women who were- I was imprisoned with, I was reading their court documents, I was translating. A lot of the women that I was in prison with weren't even Italian and so I would help them. Like I was expected- I wasn't expected, it was never an official job but like whenever anybody came in who didn't speak Italian, I was the one that was called in to assist with translation, even if it was a language that I didn't know. 

Annie [00:30:46] How did you hold on to hope? And was there times when you weren't able to do that? 

Amanda [00:30:50] So, hope, I think a lot of people think that I was sitting there constantly believing that I was going to get out and I was going to be vindicated and freed and that's the thing that kept me going when in fact, that is not the case at all. After I was convicted, I, I really fully sort of realised that sometimes life isn't fair and sometimes the truth doesn't matter. And there was no guarantee that everything was going to turn out okay. There was no guarantee that I was going to be vindicated and freed. And maybe there was a very real possibility that I was going to spend the majority of my life in prison for a crime I didn't commit. Worse things have happened to other people so who was I to be entitled to anything more than that? Instead, I embraced this idea that it is possible to be the best person I can be, no matter what my circumstances are. So if I get out and I get to live my life in the free world and I'm vindicated and people recognise that I'm innocent, like, great, of course I want that. I'm not going to give up hope that that's going to happen. But there's another side of hope, which is maybe, just maybe, even if that doesn't happen, maybe my life will still be worth it. And maybe I'm going to do something in this space that is going to matter, even if it's just to one or two other people and it matters to me. You never forget what it's like to have everything taken away from you and you never forget what it feels like to be utterly helpless and utterly overwhelmed by circumstances that are out of your control. And the truth is that we're all in that state all the time. None of us have control over the circumstances that come at us and that impact us, the only thing that we have control over is ourselves and how we react to it. And a lot of times the only ways that we can react to really, really big things is in really, really small, humble ways that are yet very self-defining and very meaningful. So I do not live under the illusion now that good things are guaranteed in life and that things are always going to turn out the way they should. Should is a very dangerous word.  It's loaded with all these expectations and when you encounter life with expectations, you inevitably are going to find those expectations thwarted and you're going to be unnecessarily miserable for it. And instead, if you think of whatever life throws at you as not a setback, but an opportunity- I'm not saying that a bad thing- a cancer diagnosis is just an opportunity, be positive guys-

Annie [00:34:07] Of course, yeah, yeah. 

Amanda [00:34:07] It's more like, it is what it is. You can't change that. Instead of like, dwelling on what you can't change, really embrace what you can. 

[00:34:20] *Short musical interlude*

Annie [00:34:30] So you were freed in 2011, what was that change like from being incarcerated, to being liberated, to being back home with your family, back to the life that you lived before? How hard was it to assimilate? 

Amanda [00:34:48] Well, the thing is, I didn't get to go back to the life that I was living before. I went back to a world where I was now the girl accused of murder and I was recognised wherever I went, and I was followed by journalists wherever I went. That never went away so I had to at first, once again, grieve the life that I thought that I was going to have and then try to figure out what is this life that I'm even living. And, you know, after I was, you know, released from prison, I was still on trial. Like, I was still accused of murder and I went- I spent another four years in this limbo space not knowing if I was going to be extradited back to Italy to serve out an even longer sentence and so those four years of, quote, freedom were loaded down with the experience of still being hunted by the Italian justice system and still being hunted by the media and being misrepresented and always scrutinised and seen in the worst possible light and feeling utterly alienated from the rest of humanity. Blamed for my own wrongful conviction, blamed for everything bad that had happened to me. And it took a long time for me to unravel what was on me, versus what was on other people. It really wasn't until I met other wrongly convicted people that I started to feel like I wasn't just this lone person who didn't belong to anyone anymore, I actually was somebody who had something horrible happen to me that was not this isolated incident, it happens way more often than you think to lots of different people and that got me interested in the psychology of how these things happen. It got me interested in the institutions and what ways that our institutions that we rely on to seek justice fail us for whatever reason. And as I learned more, I started to share more information. I felt like I felt my voice growing inside of me and I found opportunities to share my perspective where I felt it was useful. Then I got the courage to really start telling my story and embracing the fact that I had a story to tell. Like, one of the things that really was painful for me was people telling me that what happened to me didn't matter in comparison to what happened to Meredith. Like, you know, and in a way that's true. Like of the two of us, I am the lucky one, my life did not end on November 1st 2007. I've been able to continue existing, and that is a privilege that I'm incredibly lucky to have. On the flip side, though, it doesn't mean I didn't live through something and it doesn't mean that what I lived through doesn't matter. And I'm still sort of piecing together- like I think I'm still like unravelling how the media and the prosecution merged Meredith's tragedy with mine and sort of put us on this zero sum reality where if I acknowledge what I went through, that's somehow taking away what she went through and that's not true. Like what she went through is utterly horrific and horrible and absolutely should be addressed and the suffering that resulted from it, you know, embraced and taken care of. Like, you know, before I was even a victim of the criminal justice system, I was an indirect victim of crime. I was Meredith's friend, I was Meredith's roommate and I was impacted by what this burglar, Rudy Guede did to her. And it just so happened that on the heels of all of that, I then became the victim of something else and it had a life of its own. 

Annie [00:39:18] *Exhales sharply* how would you like to change your life or the life around you moving forwards, Amanda?  

Amanda [00:39:27] I would really love to be defined by what I do and not defined by this horrific thing that I didn't do. So today, I work really, really hard to put out really good work and thoughtful work in the world. I'm a writer, I am a podcaster. I have a podcast with my husband called Labyrinths, and I still feel like the vast majority of how the world knows that I even exist is through the context of what happened to Meredith, and the worst thing that's ever happened to me, and not the life that I've built and the work that I've done since surviving all of that. But even if that doesn't happen, my biggest aspiration is to be okay with that, because again, that's not truly in my control. The only thing that is in my control is my ability to do good work and to try to create an impact in the world and to be a good mom and a good wife and a good family member. And then whatever happens, just be okay with it. 

Annie [00:40:48] How, looking back, having been, you know, out of prison over ten years, well over ten years, with the benefit of hindsight- and I suppose the joy of time passing is that this period of your life will become smaller and smaller as your life becomes bigger, I suppose how do you think that the whole ordeal changed you as a person? 

Amanda [00:41:12] It certainly made me more aware of how fragile and precious life is. How we can't take anything for granted, and how easy it is to be grateful, truly grateful, for whatever it is that we have going for us. Like truly, because none of that is is guaranteed. And so it's made me- and I really hold this as very precious to me, it's instilled in me this deep, deep instinct to grasp on to this new perspective that I've gained, that everything can be taken away and therefore everything is precious. In some ways, that's made me a little bit crippled and debilitated because on the one hand I don't really trust that anything is going to turn out *laughs*. 

Annie [00:42:18] Yeah, it's understandable. 

Amanda [00:42:19] You know, I have this like deep sort of sense of despair that like all things will come to not, just because they can. There is that sort of trauma response that I have, but on the other hand I have this deep, deep knowledge that whatever I'm doing right now matters so I need to be aware of it and mindful of it and purposeful and if it turns out well in the future, great. If not, we'll figure it out *laughs*. 

Annie [00:42:51] Amanda Knox, it's been such a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much for your generosity in sharing all of this with us today. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you.

Amanda [00:43:01] Thank you so much. I really appreciate talking with you. 

Annie [00:43:08] Do please rate, review and subscribe to Changes. It is so appreciated and if you fancy sharing it on social media too, that would be amazing. The more people we can get listening to these episodes the better,  we want to tell our stories far and wide. Changes is produced by Louise Mason through DIN Productions. Thanks for listening!